Comments on: Monergism musings http://thoughtpaths.com/archives/85 ThoughtPaths with Ken Wilson et al Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:21:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.7 by: cnaphan http://thoughtpaths.com/archives/85#comment-28 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 00:28:55 +0000 http://thoughtpaths.com/archives/85#comment-28 Perhaps we should say that before you can will to attain a certain level of holiness, the Holy Spirit has already moved your will, and whatever you happen to do in the pursuit of perfection flows from the movements of the Spirit like water flowing from a opened dam. But I'm still not convinced. Even right now, I will to be perfect and to give myself completely to God, but noone, save Christ and on this side of Heaven, will ever attain that. But still, I have the will, but not the knowledge of how or the power to do so. Or perhaps I lack the real will but only have knowledge of the will I ought to have? That makes sense because my will is contaminated by every sort of worldly will, and I lack the power to purge away all wills save the only will I want to have. And how can a poor soul change its will by itself? Will to will something different? What a heavy burden! Only the Spirit can move our will, which is essentially what you're talking about. That leaves me free to think of myself as cooperating with the Spirit in doing good works, self-control, etc... Perhaps we should say that before you can will to attain a certain level of holiness, the Holy Spirit has already moved your will, and whatever you happen to do in the pursuit of perfection flows from the movements of the Spirit like water flowing from a opened dam.

But I’m still not convinced. Even right now, I will to be perfect and to give myself completely to God, but noone, save Christ and on this side of Heaven, will ever attain that. But still, I have the will, but not the knowledge of how or the power to do so. Or perhaps I lack the real will but only have knowledge of the will I ought to have? That makes sense because my will is contaminated by every sort of worldly will, and I lack the power to purge away all wills save the only will I want to have. And how can a poor soul change its will by itself? Will to will something different? What a heavy burden!

Only the Spirit can move our will, which is essentially what you’re talking about. That leaves me free to think of myself as cooperating with the Spirit in doing good works, self-control, etc…

]]> by: kwilson http://thoughtpaths.com/archives/85#comment-20 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 22:37:57 +0000 http://thoughtpaths.com/archives/85#comment-20 I think you are splitting hairs to no avail. You are called (before you exist for that matter), you hear and you come (you can run but you can't hide in modern terms), none of which you are the driving force for - though it may appear to you that you are. You would not come of your own volition, and without the predestined call and the Spirit you would remain in the grasp of the Prince of the Air. I think you are splitting hairs to no avail. You are called (before you exist for that matter), you hear and you come (you can run but you can’t hide in modern terms), none of which you are the driving force for - though it may appear to you that you are. You would not come of your own volition, and without the predestined call and the Spirit you would remain in the grasp of the Prince of the Air.

]]> by: cnaphan http://thoughtpaths.com/archives/85#comment-19 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 22:25:22 +0000 http://thoughtpaths.com/archives/85#comment-19 If I understand it correctly, the "synergist" says "I can do nothing good apart from the Holy Spirit" and the "monergist" says "The Holy Spirit does everything". How is that reconciled with the hundreds of exhortations to stop sinning in the New Testament alone? Jesus gives a lot of practical advice on how to resist temptation and stay free of sin. Why would he spend so much time on this if regeneration were a purely supernatural process that happens without our consent or knowledge? Why would Paul claim "I give blows to my body, and keep it under control, for fear that, after having given the good news to others, I myself might not have God's approval." (1 Cor 9:27) It seems to me that exhorting a person to change their ways when they cannot, while knowing God is the sole agent of change, is either futile at best, or deceitful at worst. If Paul believed in monergism, why would he fear that he will lose God's approval if he does not stop sinning? Does he doubt the Spirit's efficacy and potency in regenerating him sufficiently? From his other writings, it is clear he believes he could do nothing with the Holy Spirit, but there's nothing to indicate that he did not consider himself and his flock as agents, allbeit a hopelesslly weak and insufficient ones, empowered by the Spirit. Which is synergism, not monergism. If I understand it correctly, the “synergist” says “I can do nothing good apart from the Holy Spirit” and the “monergist” says “The Holy Spirit does everything”.

How is that reconciled with the hundreds of exhortations to stop sinning in the New Testament alone? Jesus gives a lot of practical advice on how to resist temptation and stay free of sin. Why would he spend so much time on this if regeneration were a purely supernatural process that happens without our consent or knowledge? Why would Paul claim “I give blows to my body, and keep it under control, for fear that, after having given the good news to others, I myself might not have God’s approval.” (1 Cor 9:27)

It seems to me that exhorting a person to change their ways when they cannot, while knowing God is the sole agent of change, is either futile at best, or deceitful at worst.

If Paul believed in monergism, why would he fear that he will lose God’s approval if he does not stop sinning? Does he doubt the Spirit’s efficacy and potency in regenerating him sufficiently? From his other writings, it is clear he believes he could do nothing with the Holy Spirit, but there’s nothing to indicate that he did not consider himself and his flock as agents, allbeit a hopelesslly weak and insufficient ones, empowered by the Spirit. Which is synergism, not monergism.

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